Friday, March 03, 2006

Church Today-Your Thoughts?

I'm wresting with this post. I just wrote 4 paragraphs and erased it all. I've decided that this post will not be about what I think - I would rather gather the input of anyone reading my blog. Im wrestling with the topic of "church". My husband and I have talked about it nearly daily lately, and it's become a topic of controversy and opinion in many ways. In a world today where relativism and mediocrity bite at us for our devotion day in and day out, what should churches and the body of Christ look like? I read an interesting article today (the link is available with the title of this entry - click to read more), and have chosen to post the following:

In a recent seminar I learned that in order to double one's Sunday School class size the teacher should avoid presenting a lesson that has too much depth. It was felt that if the lesson was too deep that new visitors would feel overwhelmed and would be less likely to return. This really bothered me. Are we to strive to water down the Word of God in order to obtain members with a shallow faith who, when faced with the trials of life, have no root to stand in adversity? I'm sure there is a place for a class devoted to seekers but I think we should all be striving to grow past the milk and obtain the more meaty substance of God's Word. What part does the seeker-sensitive service/class play in today's world?

This hit home with me. It's a topic at the center of our confusion and seemingly endless search for a church that we long to become a part of. We've run into many churches in our area that live by the seeker-sensative model, and I guess my desire is to hear your opinion, to hear your take on church. Here are a few more paragraphs of interest I read and re-read:

“The desire to be overly seeker-sensitive is pulling us away from proclaiming the hard truth of the Gospel. The Gospel is an offense! A righteous man was nailed to a cross. There was a beating involved, and blood shed. We must not water that down. We cannot compromise the reality of the Gospel under the guise of relevancy. Relevancy is earned when churches –- Christians –- acting as the hands of Christ, touch the wounded hearts and souls of those around them. When Christians act like Jesus, bear the burdens of others like Jesus, suffer with others like Jesus, then we will be more effective in verbally sharing the pointed truths of the Gospel with them like Jesus. What’s more, the lost will drink in the message like a thirsty man wandering in a desert drinks in cool, clean water.”

John MacArthur recently decried the seeker-sensitive movement as: “The push within churches across the country to make worship services more "relevant" and therefore more attractive to the world. It's the driving force behind the marketing ploys and high-tech entertainment gimmicks churches use to promote growth. As you read this, you may be asking, ‘What's so dangerous about trying to attract unbelievers to your church?’”

MacArthur goes on to call seeker-sensitivity "deadly" for churches. And he makes a compelling, if not paradoxical, argument. For if seeker-sensivitity truly buffers the church roll (and why do it if it doesn't?), why would it be dangerous?
Because the Word in all its truth is not taught, and according to 2 Corinthians 4:2, anything other is "shameful and underhanded." It also takes an important job out of the hands of believers:

“I just heard MacArthur preach this week that we too often think of church as the "place of evangelism." Instead, he taught that the church was where members gathered to worship, be taught, hear the preached Word of God, and equipped to do evangelism in the world. If every meeting of the church is turned to "seeker sensitive," I wonder-- and I mean this sincerely -- when will the saints be equipped?”
“Witnessing activities outside the church are great but the church is for Christians not for unbelievers. Unbelievers need the truth not sensitivity.”


And a few more here:

But if that ideal is geared so to equip Christians to evangelize and minister out in the world, we must honestly ask ourselves why we’re missing so many who are lost and yet seeking a spiritual path. There has to be a way to find balance: Discipleship and training for the committed. The message of salvation, the truth, and a genuine sense of love from the congregation for visitors and seekers.

For more, please feel free to read the article. I guess the biggest thing I'm looking for is answers! I know that none of you can give that to me, and I know that there's really no 1-way to lead a church. It's going to be from God alone where I get my answers. My heart just cries out for depth, for truth, and for something greater than the watered down gospel and truth I've heard recently. I also want to stop questioning why even go to church. This has been a question in my mind- why go, on sundays, if I can get deeper teaching, meat of the word, and truth of challenge in my faith that I can get meeting with someone one-on-one or in a small group? And I want to stop comparing every church to the one I know back home, the one I grew up in. It's stinkin awesome! But there's something wrong when I leave that place and I'm SO FULL FROM TRUTH AND YET LONGING FOR MORE OF GOD AND TO BE MORE IN CHRIST, and every time I've left other church attendings recently I think "I wonder what's on TV today/Which restaraunt should we choose for lunch?" Seriously! That's my struggle. If I, someone who loves the Lord and has walked with him for quite some time now, leaves church instilled with either a passion and zeal in my faith or a sense of "what's next" - how much greater the complex when someone young or new in their faith, or who doesnt know the Lord but is exploring, leaves the church every week??? We're talking about making disciples of Christ or making people who sit and listen but do nothing with their lives and crave the mediocre! So many Americans refer to themselves as "christians" but would those same people really say they love Jesus Christ?

Okay. My ranting is done. Comments, please? I'm open and I want to listen to all sides.

11 Comments:

At 3/03/2006 2:11 PM, Blogger Derek said...

Wow...that's exhaustive. But wonderful. Thanks Kelli.

I've shared my thoughts on this before with you. But I like to put them out there once again. First off, the first thing that pops out at me is the mis-use of the term and meaning of Relevant that so many people use. A Relevant church is a church that is not "relevant to culture" but one that says "GOD IS RELEVANT IN EVERYTHING, in our culture". So to be a truly relevant church means that you yourself or what you do is not relevant, but GOD IS. Make sense? Relevant magazine is an example. Great magazine that appears to be relevant to culture...but that's not it's purpose of the name...the name relevant depicts a God who is relevant in every facet of our life. That's probably clear as mud now so I'll move on.

I got a lot of thoughts so excuse my ramblings when I get there.

A seeker sensitive Sunday service is different then a seeker sensitive church. For example my church. Our sunday service could be viewed by some steeped deep in religious behavior as a seeker sensative service. Ok thats fine. Although I'd dissagree. Because I'm not a seeker and I walk out of there pumped up and excited. But yes we have the fancy video, cool music, techy-stuff. But those don't define a seeker sensative church, those are simply gifts of the body of believers being used to HIS glory. So although the Sunday service may be percieved as seeker sensitive. To draw a conclusion that the "church" is entirely seeker sensative and to discard it for not proclaiming the gospel is premature and ridiculous. Sunday morning is "NOT" church. The church is much deeper. The true Christ following church is anyway. Before you can draw any conclusion on the way a church presents the Gospel you need to know more than a Sunday service. You need to talk to the pastors. See what else they offer for spiritual growth and biblical knowledge. That is why our church does Small Groups, Prayer Services, Bible Studies, Alpha courses, Service groups and all those other things. That is where the true depth and growth of your Spritual desire happens. That is where you come to KNOW God. Not just experience him for an hour on Sunday.

So where does that leave me on why go to a Sunday church service? Hmmmm.... no good clear answer except that God loved the church and wants us to be part of it...His people, his bride.

...And because of the commandment from Christ.... Go and make beleivers of all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And Sunday morning services are a tangible way to do that in our culture. It is a place where a "relevant God" meets people every sunday. Whether YOU like the way the service is presented or not. And he wants you to be a part of that.

Last thing. I always like to look at the way Christ led his disciples as a model for how a church should lead. He had 12 close friends/disciples where he concentrated on speaking almost solely on the Character of God and who he is..."the gospel". But to non-beleivers or seekers he would invite them to experience God before he served up the gospel. Take for example all his miracle healings... he cured first (experiencing God) then he said go and sin no more...or go and tell the good news. His sermons...he fed the 5000 (miracle, experiencing God) then he presented the Gospel. Going back to the disciples...that was Christs "small group" where true spritual growth and knowledge amongst believers happened. He knew it. God knew that the spiritual growth we long for can not be completely satisfied in big corporate settings. But in small intimate setting where we can meet him face to face.

ok lastly, lastly
This is all seems so legalistic. The fact that all this stuff is out there on the interenet disputing the "method" for which churches follow bothers me. I would like to spend less time debating all this and know that "God is relevant" anywhere and in any method of a Sunday church service. Whether I like it or not. We could all spend a little less time pointing fingers at each other and instead spend more time raising or hands to God and serving his people, palms up. Saying "whatever your will God, I will follow."

 
At 3/03/2006 2:26 PM, Blogger Kelli B said...

Yeah yeah! This is what I like. I like to be challenged. I find many things you've said worthy of further investigation and thought. I find myself a bit confused on all the "terminology" used these days as well, but that's why it's good to seek. To keep seeking.

And Im not pointing fingers out to all churches - just the experiences we've had most recently, down here in DM. We're gonna keep plugging through it.

Thanks again.

Keep em coming, people!

 
At 3/03/2006 4:51 PM, Blogger Derek said...

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you as pointing finger, but all the stuff you quoted. It's ok to question the orginazation of Sunday morning church. I just don't see the point in authors proving their point by disproving others. And then posting all their "ideas" all over accredited christian resource sites and in books, which are there to build up the kingdom and support churches.

All I see this as is a matter of personnal preference. When I first became a christian, I would say to small deeply religious churches, "you do it wrong", well thats not exactly true in some cases. They just do it different. Althought if they are spiritualy dead and no one is growing. Then yes they are doing it wrong. Completely wrong.

I am challenged by the institute of corporate Sunday worship sometimes too. It's validity and all that. But then we have what are church calls "God Watch Sundays". Where you get to see how just one visit to our church on a Sunday morning has transformed lives and gotten people deeply devoted into serving God, serving others and growing sprituality. And lets face it, I have a hard time arguing that.

 
At 3/03/2006 10:43 PM, Blogger Angie said...

i agree with derek that God is relevant in everything. I think the "relevant" part should apply to us. I think it's our constant challenge to be relevant, not to make God relevant to us.

church is such a business now and makes it so obvious that it's a completely human thing. god doesn't need church. i didn't really understand this issue until i went overseas and experienced church in a really pure way, and came back to church being a huge production. it was really hard but it was a huge turning point in my life to take myself out of a mindset that i was raised in, and take ownership of what church meant to me.

 
At 3/04/2006 12:41 AM, Blogger Sarah said...

Hi Kelli,
I found your website from Schism's (Allison) site and I've been reading it for a while and finally have a comment. I'm not much of a writer, so don't expect much eloquence.

The pastor of the church Ryan and I go to here in KS once said "I preach Jesus at church. I don't believe people come to chruch to hear about themselves and their own lives. People come to hear about Jesus, so that's what I talk about." And he does litterally preach through scripture. Hebrews 11:1-3 one week then Heb 11:4-7 the next. We are blessed at how solid our chruch is - and grounded in scripture and truth. Of course, no human institution is perfect, so there's negative things I could say about it as well. But I realized in college to pick a good community and stick with it.

So my thought for you is there are deep chruches for the mature Christian out there - keep searching. But God has power in all and over all and can work in the seeker churches too, as you know.

 
At 3/04/2006 11:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

kelli- hey- i found your blog on jo's blog- great topic. my husband and i wrestle with this a lot. there is a great book called Organic church planting by neil cole- it will rock your standards of church. i can send you one if want. email me your address- jamiekampman@yahoo.com

hope this helps a bit!
jamie

 
At 3/05/2006 8:07 AM, Blogger Diana said...

Hi Kelli,
This is a really touchy subject for me because my parents were 'asked to leave' a church for being too challenging to the leadership. It was a church chained with legalism and my parents had found the secret of grace. I was only 12 when we were kicked out of church.

Now my mom and dad are divorced and my mom hasn't been to church in over ten years. My dad is still searching for a group of people dedicated to the amazing truth of grace.

As you can imagine, I have had a hard time opening up to who I call 'churchy people' because I am stubborn and refuse to conform. They don't like people who are different than them. I am still a seeker, but I am past drinking spiritual milk. All Christians are to be seekers, setting our faces toward the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. If we stop seeking God then we will miss the whole point. This term 'seeker-sensitive' is new to me. Any time man conforms to the ways of this world and strays from the truth in order to sell his opinion, he is taking Jesus' position in the church away. Jesus is our reason for being! That's what makes the church, not world relevance.

My husband and I are attending a church now where the pastor never even went to seminary. All three pastors were in the world workforce until God called them to ministry. None of them went to seminary or bible college. The Holy Spirit has never been so obviously present to me! God loves to take ordinary people and do extraordinary things with them. This church provides encouragement believers in many stages of their walk. I have also never seen a pastor who is so humble as to sacrifice his own need for importance for God's importance. It doesn't even make sense to thank the pastor for the sermon. A pastor, like a prophet is merely the messenger. It's like thanking the flower pot for making the flower so beautiful! It doesn't make sense.

I really hope you find yourself rebelling against the patterns of this world and standing up for those believers who may also feel comatosed in that church you are in. My advice? Offer yourself wholly and completely to God as a living sacrifice and trust Him to provide you with the fellowship He wants you to have. But do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world. Seek first the Kingdom of God and if that church is pulling you away from His Kingdom, don't waste your time there. Pray for them, love them, and go find the place where God wants you to be fed. That's my advice.

These are sick times, K. People are lovers of themselves and money rather than lovers of God. It takes true fear of the Lord to have wisdom and that which the Holy Spirit provides. This life is a series of tests in perseverence, it isn't vacation. Our true home is in Heaven with our Lord. In the meantime we are to do His will and serve Him by the grace He provides. I will be praying for you, sister. Don't just settle for mediocrity, but love those who have been entrapped by the mediocre. Then having a place to be nourished by the Word, you may be commissioned to pull some of them out of the fire.

Sorry for my long-windedness. It's probably THE subject closest to my heart. The true Church isn't easy to find, it's not a matter of walking under the right steeple. It's a matter of walking under the right Master.

 
At 3/05/2006 9:28 AM, Blogger Dez Darlyn said...

Thought provoking, as I have been struggling to find a church. Since moving to AZ, picking a church has been hard. When I lived in Orange County, I used to go to Yorba Linda Friends (non Quaker) Christian fellowship. The pastor there was a humble right-on bible based former pro baseball player. The church grew and grew because the Lord was doing a mighty work there. I drove 45 minutes just to get there. I am going to Calvary Chapel in Goodyear (45 min drive) this morning. There are many churches in the Worship directory in our newspaper and I hope to finally find one I can call home. Cathee

 
At 3/05/2006 3:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

kelli-
andy said maybe check out the Rock- have you heard of that in Ames- it does more of a house kind of church model- more intimate setting.
cathee- have you heard of http://www.faithchurchaz.org/staff-nathan.html
my husband went to bangladesh with the missions pastor there.

jamie

 
At 3/06/2006 12:59 PM, Blogger Derek said...

Thanks Kelli. This has been a wonderful thought starter for me. I've been thinking about all this since the moment you posted this.

Just another thought I had over the weekend. I think we pigeon hole "Church" as an institution, when it's not supposed to be. We culturally put this idea that our salvation partially rests on our Sunday morning attendence record. Don't we? I think I find myself falling victim to that. Its easy to have complacent seasons in life where you just start thinking "I'm going to church, Gods got me covered". How pathetic! Wow is that easy to do. If church is in fact not an institution and rather a community of believers this brings me to what I see as EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in church, and that is that it is in a close local community. This is my own personal conviction so I don't want to imply that everyone needs to follow this. But let me tell you why I've come to this conclusion. When my best friend experienced the overwhelming loss of his wife in a freak car accident, the first person he called was me. It was me because he and I met in a small group and we had spent the previous 2.5 years building a solid, accountable, and emotional bonded kindship. Now if I lived 45 minutes to an hour away. There is no way I could have been there for him. And when I recieved the phone call the desperation in his voice said to me "I need you here now." I couldn't imagine being in a place where I would of had to say give me an hour so I can pack up my stuff and get there. Instead I was able to be there in a matter of a couple minutes.

Spritual growth through sermons, good teaching and the gospel are at your fingertips at all times. Look in your Bible, get online and download a sermon, buy messages on cd, subscribe to a podcast, buy books....there are billions of resources to grow us spritually. But a church....a church in its pure, un-contaminated form (which trust me, if you find the right people can happen, i have and am experiencing it) is truly what being a part of the body of Christ is really about. Support, Grace, Love, Kindship, Accountablilty, Growth, and many more virtues.

 
At 3/06/2006 2:05 PM, Blogger Kelli B said...

Wow. You leave me all speechless. I have MILLIONS of thoughts running a mile-a-minute through my head about this and in response to what everyone's written. Please continue to write! I so appreciate it.

Thanks for sharing. Really.

Jamie - I have heard of "the Rock" in Ames, Lori Adams was talking about it recently. Thanks for mentioning it.

Derek - I have been thinking about this just as long! It was a topic we talked about all weekend at the retreat at Riverside too. I'd love to share what the pastor said (who spoke this weekend) and what I learned from listening to others close to our age about their frustrations and similar thinkings. It's soooo interesting. It strikes a chord with so many of us, i just know it's worth praying about, seeking the Lord about, and discovering further.

Everone else - you've given me a great deal to think about. Thank you!

 

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